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• 6/27/2015

Titles: "provincar of" vs. "provincar dy"

OCD word usage:

I saw the round of edits on "provincar of" to "provincar dy", and went looking to see what Lois had used. First, it isn't perfectly consistent, so I think if you really want "provincar dy" in a spot it's fine.  However, most often she uses "the provincar of [province]", with provincar lower case, when referring to the position as opposed to the man.  That's the majority of the uses--in CoC it's 18:2 of of:dy, and 19:0 in Paladin. If my ebook counts are right.  I'm ignoring the Dictionary in Paladin as that's my text (though edited by Lois).

For places where the definite article isn't used ("Provincar dy [province has done x"), Chalion has 1:6 of:dy.  Paladin has one "dy" and no "of".

I suspect some of this evolved as the books were written, and some may be copy-edit misses.

The Provincara (of Baocia) is a special case, and I recall Lois saying that she had such presence she was special. It's always Provincara (capitalized), and almost never with the province--she's just the Provincara.  (For completeness, when Baocia is mentioned there's one "of" and one "dy".)  Usually not with "Dowager", but when it is, that gets capitalized too.  Quite a personality.  :)  Oh, found the Bujold list message from Lois (July 10, 2002): "In general, I've tried to follow modern usage and not cap titles except in direct address, but the Provincara was having none of it; she remains capped throughout."

Further note: provincar is not done the same as March, where in CoC it's almost always capitalized and almost always "dy"--the 2 exceptions are for "the high march of Yiss", but there's one "March dy Yiss" in there too. In Paladin we have lots of "the march of x" and the "March dy Oby" (only person using this) when the reference is definitely to the person and not the position.

I'm not going to try to deduce the rules for "Lord dy X" and "lord X".  :)

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• 6/27/2015

I suppose you could ask Lois.... Evolution is likely. I tried to annotate oddities in vorkosigan wikia (like Moira ghem Estif versus Lady d'Har), but it's probably best to pick "dy Province" and claim it's the righter usage and that people in the books who say it wrong are simply not being careful in their terminology, or are showing their provincial-ness, or whatever reason one wants to come up with.)

KarenHunt (talk) 16:47, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

• 6/27/2015

Got a reply from Lois:

Heh.  I'm afraid I was not so OCD as the fans about some of my usages.

But yeah, if it was used as a substitute for the proper name of a specific individual, probably "dy", and a more general case, "of".  Or one could feign that sometimes it was translated from the Ibran and sometimes not...

So, mostly, "The March of Oby" vs.  "March dy Oby".

He was the March of Oby.


March dy Oby spoke: "Yadda, yadda..."

Though it might also be, The March of Oby spoke: "Yadda..."

It would never be

March of Oby spoke: "Yadda."

Ta, L.


So, as we notice them, change instances of "the provincar dy [Province]" to "the provincar of". Places that call for "dy" are much less common.

• 6/27/2015

Sounds good. So, "dy" pretty much means we have a particular person in mind, whereas "of" means we're talking about the place or somebody with the job. I can live with that distinctions.

(and ocd is a compliment when living in wikia-land)

KarenHunt (talk) 21:09, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

• 6/27/2015

I'll probably use the rule of "is it substituting for a proper name"--if I can put in Bob, I'll use "dy".  So, "Bob said this" is a "Provincar dy" spot. Anywhere Bob sounds wrong, use "the".  :)

• 6/27/2015
Sounds good! :-D
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